#mcu discourse

[laurelwinchester]

rewatching the marvel movies as a thirtysomething adult trying (finally) to heal from 20+ years of severe mental illness and trauma and actually doing the work to do that really hits different. but also not that different. i've never understood the obsessive love the fandom has for tony stark and i understand it even less now.

the avengers within the mcu were never a cohesive unit (or, you know, actual friends) because they were constantly at the mercy of a severely mentally ill billionaire who consistently and unapologetically allowed his trauma and illness to explode outwards and harm others and then he would wallow and whine and use his considerable wealth to attempt to mop up the mess he created. he never got real help. he never put an effort into seriously trying to heal and it damaged not only every single person around him but random citizens and cities.

"but he was a good man at heart!"

yes. he was. that is not enough. that man was unwell and a danger to himself and others. he knew that and yet he continued to cause chaos and spread his trauma to other people. mental illness or not, that is selfish. his sacrifice at the end was noble but it doesn't undo the decade before that.

it's kind of mind boggling that steve, of all people, gets shit on the most in the fandom when the first two captain america movies (notably movies without tony btw) were the only movies with a shred of actual real competency and friendship in them.

[weepingmusicchopshop]

John Walker was a better Captain America than Sam Wilson ever was in his own movie.

👑

[thund3randrain]

*holding THOSE marvel fans by their shoulders*

Not everything is catered to you. The marvel brand is so huge and expansive and there are so many different genres and styles and creators and directions involved that not everything can be catered to your specific wants.

Agatha All Along was most likely not made or marketed for you. The Marvels was most likely nor made or marketed for you. Black Widow was most likely not made or marketed for you.

You don't have to watch every mcu movie and show and short. I haven't, because some of them just aren't for me. They aren't made for me and what I like. The days where you had to watch every single MCU property are over, you can pick and choose ones made for your demographic if you're really that allergic to trying new things and expanding your media diet.

You didn’t need to rewatch Black Widow before thunderbolts if you didn’t want to. You didn’t need to rewatch tfatws before thunderbolts if you didn’t want to. You didn’t need to rewatch Ant Man and the Wasp before thunderbolts if you didn’t want to. But some people did because they enjoyed those films.

Your opinion isn’t gospel. You aren’t entitled to telling people what is or isn’t objectively good. Art is subjective

Get a grip.

[hainethehero]

Steve Rogers Trauma: A TED TALK

Why is it that any kind of commentary/analysis on Steve Roger's trauma has to be met with comparisons to Bucky or Tony's trauma? Or most of the fanfics I read completely gloss over Steve's trauma?

Some of y'all legit do not care or are blind to Steve Roger's trauma throughout the Captain America & Avengers films and it shows. And this isn't hate to any fanfic writers but rather an observation of most stucky and stony fanfics which seem to minimize Steve's character & trauma in favour of highlighting their fave's. And of course it's fine that people want to write about Bucky or Tony or even Nat's trauma, but MOST TIMES* I've read these fics and they all have an intentional disregard for Steve's traumas.

And this speaks to the wider discourse around Tony, Bucky & Steve- the three characters most written about in mcu fanfics.

Because why is it that anytime I bring up Steve's PTSD or his illnesses or the hell he would've gone through pre-serum, people always HAVE to add in their 2cents about, "well yeah & Bucky went through worse." Like.???? No, I'm not talking about him.

I absolutely love Bucky and he's one of my favourite characters in both the comics and the MCU but, respectfully, this ain't about him.

I'm talking about Steve and his life. The crap he would've had to deal with both in public and at home. Especially the horrors both he and Sarah would've gone through because of Joseph Rogers who was a terrible person and an alcoholic who beat up on his wife and sickly kid.

And even post-serum when he's completely healthy and living in the future now, I'm still seeing popular narratives about "Yeah he's alive now & hasn't gone through half of what Bucky's endured over the past 70yrs." OR "He's had it easy compared to Bucky who was being tortured by HYDRA."

Um, no one's saying Bucky's treatment under HYDRA was a good thing??? But we're talking about Steve here, not Bucky?

And how he was literally frozen in a state of purgatory & how traumatic it would feel to be ripped out of it and then basically thrown to the new world on your ass without any kind of therapy or help. Most people make it seem like Steve was in a Sleeping Beauty kind of sleep and then woke up completely fine. And I will admit the MCU has been the main culprit of that narrative because they deleted so many scenes that humanized Steve Rogers, that now the gen pop thinks:

he's perfectly fine

has zero trauma

should complain about nothing

hasn't had it hard like Bucky or Tony

is a lesser hero because of all of the above

I recently had a convo with a friend & we were talking abt the scene in Avengers 1 when they were all at each other's throats. And they said that Tony was right about Steve being a laboratory experiment & everything special about him came out of a bottle. And I'm like... yeah nah, that's the lazy ass writing that Whedon perpetuated that now makes Steve one of the most misunderstood heroes & people in the MCU. Because he was special before the serum because of his consideration of others. He was special because not only did he hate bullies, but he also went out of his way to protect those that couldn't protect themselves KNOWING what that confrontation might cost him as a chronically sick person. Tony needed a whole ass arc about literally witnessing & living first hand what his weapons were doing to innocents like Yinsen & his people, to change his ways. Steve didn't have, nor did he need any of that to make him special. (AND BEFORE THE TONY STANS COME FOR ME, I LOVE TONY, HE'S LITERALLY ONE OF MY FAVES IN THE MARVEL COMICS & MCU) But this hatred for Steve is ridiculous.

And once again, it's the MCUs fault because they made Tony the ultimate hero of the Avengers at the expense of Steve Rogers' character. Him being able to prove he was "worthy" all along by lifting Thor's hammer was a cheap payoff in the end, much like the entirety of Endgame was. Thanks for coming to my Ted talk.

[doyouknowthemuffinmaam]

THUNDERBOLTS* OPINION WITH SPOILERS!!!

Bucky is wrong and Sam is right.

Bucky says their meeting about the new name/team and the use of it went very poorly and Sam is taking steps to make sure these losers (affectionate) can not use the avengers name.

And he is right to do so.

I get that Bucky, Yelena, and to an extent all the rest of them are looking for purpose and redemption but this is not the way.

And it is certainly not the way any of the new teams og avengers counterparts would even remotely approve of. Steve, Natasha, Bruce, Barton, Thor, and even Tony (his logic about oversight was sound if not the form the accords took) and Scott would never be ok with a half government, half private security sector controlled avengers.

Especially an avengers being run and led by Valentina. Bc in spite of Yelenas quippy “we own you now” power play…they don’t. The only thing they have done is upgraded themselves from unknowing accessories to her crimes to fully knowledgeable and willing accessories to her crimes. Crimes that yesterday Bucky was actively and correctly seeking to impeach and imprison her for.

If they had interrupted Valentina’s press conference to contradict and arrest her to be turned over to the authorities, and then decided to keep going, to be a new avengers type team…I don’t think Sam would have much to say beyond fuck John Walker. But they didn’t. Bucky didn’t.

They are doing this the wrong way with Valentina and her agenda and it will 100% bite them in the ass. So Sam is right in whatever he is doing to safeguard Steve’s and the og Avengers legacy.

[bucky-boychik-barnes]

To anyone trying to hype up or defend John Walker, let me direct you to the (correct) articulate opinion of a veteran Air Force officer:

[sparklesandmarvel]

Not gonna lie

Captain America Civil War discourse is the craziest. There are some absolutely feral, stupid, intelligent, wild, confusing, baffling takes on team Cap and team iron man. The fact that the argument is still going to this day and gets revived every six months is truly a testament to the movie and emotional connection people have to these characters.

[thevillainsfangirl]

The main MCU timeline is NOT the 616! If it were, then it'd be exactly the same as the comics 616, which it is not. At all. You can not have more than one (1) Earth-616.

"Kevin Feige said-" Kevin Feige is an idiot who said that so it would seem like his timeline is The Marvel timeline. He said that bullshit to fuel his own ego.

[therese-lokidottir]

Now to be clear I don't think every bad review is out of misogyny, but I definitely think gloating over The Marvels disappointment in the box office is really misogynistic. Like, I didn't even like She-Hulk ATL but I know every time see a thumbnail with Jen with the text M-She-U it is not someone worth listening to. It is just another sad fanboy with another regurgitated bad take.

These people are not mad at the pandering because it's shallow and ultimately regressive. They are mad that women and PoC are headlining movies. The actual quality of the product doesn't matter to them. It's why when stuff like Black Panther or Barbie does well and is well regarded, they either disappear back into the woodwork or try to claim it has the opposite message of what it has. They just want diverse things to fail and act like their right when they do.

I have a lot of issues with the MCU right now, but I take no schadenfreude in the Marvels failure because I knew what the reaction would be.

[doctorofmagic]

Why magic in the MCU has failed

I remember the "good" old days when Doctor Strange was about to debut back in 2016. I was obsessed with spotting every single little magic detail in the MCU in the hope that magic would slowly grow in status and importance, only to give up after so much disappointment.

But the major issue? The moment Feige stated that every side project was a part of the MCU. People who experienced phase 1 and 2 will remember that magic was a taboo. "It's just science we don't understand yet". While it's a common line quoted by Marvel's greatest geniuses, we all know it's pure arrogance on their part. Otherwise, they'd be doing what magic users do.

It was not MCU's case. Magic was INDEED treated as science. From Ghost Rider's portal being reproduced by a robot through the Darkhold to Wanda's powers being a product of an experiment but not explained at all. From a loooong season of Cloak and Dagger taking its time to finally introduce magic elements to Nico's staff almost falling to the same old "technology" trope. From whatever is happening in Asgard to Loki's limited magic. It's frustrating, but we'd still find a way to turn the tables, right? The Dark Dimension was introduced (twice?), the (third) Darkhold was finally attached to Chthon, Morgana and Lorelei debuted, Nico's powers were finally acknowledge as magic... So what happened?

My best guess? Structure.

There's no structure to define what is magic in the MCU. Doctor Strange (2016) tried. Really hard. And, although it got several things right, it failed in two fundamental aspects: pre-established comic book knowledge and magic deities.

Remember how we got three Darkholds? The first was just so detached from magic that it became a book used to create a VIRTUAL world in Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. The second was used by Morgan le Fey, but how was she associated with the Dark Dimension? Moreover, that was NOT the Dark Dimension from the first DS movie (or any comic book, really). Its last appearance, as seen in WandaVision and DSITMOM, finally mentioned Chthon, but it literally did NOTHING it was supposed to do. That MCU!Wanda has nothing to do with her 616 version, this is not new. But if we're going to use comic books as foundation to adapt a story, the very bare minimum you can do is do it right. Point is, the book does corrupt people, but it's because of Chthon's influence and his connection to Wanda. Where's Chthon in the movie? The corruption was badly explored and her journey towards evil and redemption doesn't make any sense from a magic point.

Now, the "main" magic cast in the MCU could have worked... Except that there's little to no information regarding how Kamar-Taj works as a temple/school for new sorcerers. And worse even, magic isn't connected to its deities. Sure, there were a few name drops, but does it explain where it comes from? And who chooses the next sorcerer supreme if the Vishanti isn't involved?

The truth is, magic was all over the place, and the creative minds were either too oblivious to the importance of learning about how magic works in comics (to the point of adapting a second Dark Dimension that has nothing to do with the original one) or too shy to introduce a magic hierarchy (as in, deities).

There's an actual attempt to create this structure now, but it's too late. Sure, you can ignore past tv shows, but the mess remains. Eternity was supposed to be an abstract entity, deeply connected to magic, cosmic aspects and life itself.

Loki is still so embarrassing because the very foundation of Asgardian mythos started wrong (and why is that? Because no magic, of course!). While I find funny that Stephen trapped Loki in an endless freefall, there's no way the god of stories would be humiliated like that. Loki being taught magic by his alts is infuriating (and it's, again, mostly illusions).

Remember when Stephen was beaten by math? That also happened.

This is the moment I completely give up to see magic portrayed at its fullest, in all its beauty and complexity. Because it's not treated the way it deserves. It has never been.

And here's my boldest take: if you really wish to see the full potential of magic in the MCU, go for What If. The price you pay, the cosmic proportion of being misused, the creative elements... It's all there. Which is sad because it's not the main timeline. Anyways, this is it.

PS: This post may age poorly as DS3 comes out in 20 years. Let's wait and see.

[scavengerssuccotash]

God I miss the more grounded and realistic MCU, remember when shit mattered? Character arcs happened? The MCU that built upon the success of its past?

Good times.

*sighs and opens A03*

[laurelwinchester]

i'm not going to lie. y'all are doing too much about the thunderbolts post-credits scene.

[leblogreblog]

We all agree that Sokovia is a direct stand-in for Kosovo, right?

Like, it's in the same place on map, they use serbian cyrillic, from which Kosovo fights for independence from and which is one of its official languges, they literally made it up (Sokovia I mean) somewhere in 2013 when they were writting a Age of Ultron-prequel comic about it, same year as Brussel Agreements (did you know that when you google "agreements synonyms", the first one that pops up is "accords"?) were made to normalize Kosovo-Serbia relations, that due being deemed by some as not sufficient enough caused public protests...

Some people are still not sure where exactly it supposed to be when we were practically chocking by how far into our throats they were trying to push it this whole time

It's dark-timeline Kosovo and I'm tired of pretending it's not

[kahuna-burger]

Not to have some random late night Tony Stark Defense Squad discourse, but I've realized it's easier to let go of some of the more surreally bad takes when I remind myself that most of them really aren't about bashing Tony as much as protecting the basher's fave.

Obviously there are those who for whatever reason just absolutely hate the idea of Iron Man, or Tony Stark, or even RDJ and would find things to complain about if the larger MCU never existed. But imo, the majority of Tony hate comes from people whose faves have done shitty things to him, and in order for the fave to be a Good Guy, Tony has to be bad enough to deserve it.

[captaingimpy]

Captain America: a brave New World —better than it’s getting credit for

Hmmmm…. LetCaptain America: Brave New World was fine. Visually, it looked great—it’s Marvel, they have an absurd amount of money to throw at effects, so no real complaints there. But in terms of the story? It definitely played things a little too safe for my taste. Early drafts apparently leaned harder into the racial and political themes that The Falcon and the Winter Soldier set up, but it…

[werewolf-cuddles]

People keep saying that the MCU is dying. Guys, tell you what, when they stop making videogame movies and DC stop making movies, and musicals are gone, then I'll believe you. Until, chill, go watch something else. Literally anything else. Please, for your health.

"the MCU is dying"

yeah, right, I'll believe it when I see it